Interview: Sucharita Sen

Video Tabs

(00:00)
Now in urban areas the cultural values permit the women more to go into the job markets, whereas in rural areas it’s thought of as a matter prestige.
现阶段,印度城市的文化价值观已经允许女性进入就业市场,寻找工作。但在农村地区,女性参加工作则被视为是一种荣耀。
 
(00:15)
In India if a woman is working — which I learned that in China it’s different — if a woman is working it is not taken as a positive thing for the family pride.
据我所知,中国的情况与印度有所不同。在印度,女性参加工作并不是一件值得家庭骄傲的事情。
 
(00:29)
So very often what would happen is that when the family does better the women who were working under distress would be dropped from the labor force. It is called prosperity-induced withdrawal.
所以一般情况是:如果家庭收入良好,那么女性就会辞去工作,摆脱工作带来的压力。这种情况被称为「由富裕所带来的辞职」。
 
(00:45)
So you become more prosperous, you withdraw your women folk from the labor force.
随着家庭收入不断升高,女性成员也随之从劳动大军中撤出。
 
(00:53)
That could possibly be associated also with higher levels of prosperity in the peri-urban area compared the rural area where women withdraw from the labor force to start with.
这可能也与城市周边地区与农村地区的贫富差距不无关系。城市周边地区相比农村地区收入水平更高,也自然有更多女性不再参加工作。
 
(01:06)
I have analyzed for two points of time.
我曾经对两个时间段进行了分析。
 
(01:11)
One is from 2004 to 2005 and 2011 - 2012. Over the seven years what I have seen is that in both periods of time women are the worst off in the peri-urban area in terms of work participation rates.
这两个时间段分别是 2004 至 2005 年,以及 2011 至 2012 年。在这七年之间我观察到,这两个时间段内,印度城市周边地区妇女参加工作率最低。
 
(01:26)
However the gap has bridged in the sense that urban core has actually improved in terms of work participation.
然而,随着中心城市的持续发展,城乡参加工作率的差距也在不断缩小。
 
(01:38)
In the peri-urban area women in relation to men have remained the same, although in absolute sense they have gone down a little bit.
在城市周边地区,女性对于男性的附属关系依旧维持不变,但在绝对意义上来讲稍有下降。
 
(01:48)
In rural interiors they have lost out on jobs and that’s sort of a question mark that we are struggling with in India because it’s a widespread phenomena.
而在农村地区,越来越多的妇女已经失去了工作。这种现象正在印度四处蔓延,我们也对此心存疑问。
 
(02:00)
My argument was that the process of urbanization which is slowly spreading in the peri-urban area probably has a beneficial effect over time for women in relation to men.
我的观点是:正在城市周边地区缓慢蔓延的城市化进程,正在对印度女性对于男性的附属关系产生积极影响。
 
(02:13)
The cultural value or urbanism is spreading so there are probably lesser restrictions for women to enter into the labor force and probably more diverse kinds of opportunities are available.
文化价值观念或城市化观念正在不断深入人心,对于女性参加工作的种种限制也在因此逐步减少,使得女性有机会拥有更多机遇。
 
(02:30)
So they are restricted in terms of their mobility and if they get job opportunities which are very close to their home, where they have regular salaried jobs — because one of the things that I see is that the peri-urban women are more into regular salaried jobs, so they are really holding out until such a time that they are really getting the jobs that they want to.
一份离家很近且具有常规工资水平的工作实际上限制了女性在生活中的灵活性。我观察到的一点是,城市周边地区的女性更倾向于具有常规工资水平的工作,如果没有特别合适的机会,就会一直做下去。
 
(03:03)
Only then does it make it worthwhile for them to leave home and go for jobs. So they have better quality of work, but they have lower work participation rates.
只有真正找到了她们想要的工作,这些女性才会离开家乡,去外地工作。工作的质量提高了,但总体参加工作的比率下降了。
 
(03:15)
So over a period of time I think these kinds of jobs are more available and therefore the gaps are bridging.
随着时间的推移,这种类型的工作机会会越来越多,参加工作比率的差距也会逐步缩小。
 
(03:20)
I think we had a discussion yesterday whether you would rather have creche facilities for the women and then they could enter the job market or you would want to promote home-based work.
昨天我们有过一场讨论,内容有关究竟应该建立更多日托中心,使得女性能够进入就业市场,还是应该提倡以家庭为基础的工作。
 
(03:36)
The problem with home-based work is the following — that you have typically low wage-rates associated with home-based work and it’s typically very exploitative in nature.
以家庭为基础的工作其问题在于工资水平较低,女性普遍上处于被剥削的状态。
 
(03:49)
So people generally would not try and promote home-based work.
因此,人们一般不会尝试促进以家庭为基础的工作。
 
(03:55)
The second problematic thing with home-based work is that since it does not — sociologists argue that since it does not give women the mobility and interaction which they otherwise have, the kind of social environment they have otherwise would not happen in case of home-based work.
另一个问题在于,社会学家认为以家庭为基础的工作让女性失去了生活上的灵活性,以及与外界互动的机会,这些情况在其他类型的工作中则不会发生。
 
(04:13)
Having said this I feel that, yes, if it would work to provide creche facilities and if it works, that’s a better option.
即便如此,我仍然觉得如果能够建立更多日托中心,效果会更好。
 
(04:23)
However, I think the kind of multiplicity of factors which hold back a woman in the home is far more complex than only child care.
但我认为,将女性限制在家中的因素有很多种,绝不止照顾孩子这一因素。
 
(04:36)
There’s elderly care, there’s other domestic work and things like this which will not get sorted out only by a creche facility and also you will really have to do a lot of planning about the locations of the creche facilities — where the woman has to go and leave the child and pick up the child, so all those things are a little complicated.
还包括照顾老人,以及其他家务劳动。这些都是日托中心无法解决的问题。此外,在日托中心的选址上也要多加考虑,因为女性要在日托中心接送孩子,因此会有很多复杂的事情需要考虑。
 
(05:03)
Government in a way has to intervene in terms of protecting at least the minimum statutory wage rates.
政府也应当从某种程度上介入,以维持最低工资标准的实施。
 
(05:14)
What is known is that in the home-based work, many, many times it’s totally in the informal sector and therefore it’s not regulated at all.
如大家所知,很多以家庭为基础的工作都集中在非正式行业,因此毫无监管可言。
 
(05:21)
Now I think it’s very important that that needs to regulated and at least the wage rates have to be much higher than they are. It is only then I think women can productively go into home-based work.
我认为有必要对以家庭为基础的工作更好地进行监管,至少来说,工资水平要大大超过当前标准。只有这样才能提高女性在工作中的生产力。
 
(05:38)
More women in peri-urban areas say they want home-based work and they would want a regular but part-time home-based work.
越来越多城市周边地区的女性希望能够拥有一份规律的以家庭为基础的兼职工作。
 
(05:48)
So I think that’s a leading point and I’m sure that if this was available then the work participation rates in the peri-urban area would go up and it would sort of counter some of the negative demographic conditions that they are in.
在我看来,这便是解决问题的关键所在。如果可行,那么城市周边地区妇女的参加工作比率一定会直线上升,由此将在某种程度上消除当地人口环境带来的负面影响。
 
(06:08)
That is the reason why I suggested — with the rider that the government has to through either the civil society or NGOs or even through the private sector — has to regulate that these wage rates are statutory wage rates.
这也是为什么我建议政府通过民间团体或非政府组织、乃至私营部门,对以家庭为基础的工作进行监管,保证最低工资标准的实施。