Interview: Peter Nientied

Video Tabs

(00:00)
What has happened in Europe is very different from what is happening now in Asia.
欧洲与亚洲的情况大相径庭。
 
(00:07)
If I put it in black and white, in Asia there are a number of very big cities, mega-cities.
具体来说,亚洲现在有很多非常大的城市,很多特大城市。
 
(00:14)
In Europe there are only two very big cities: London and Paris.
而欧洲只有两个非常大的城市:伦敦和巴黎。
 
(00:19)
And the rest are all one million, half a million, two million, and they are forming a kind of network.
其余城市大多只有一、两百万人口,甚至五十万人口。这些城市组成了城市网络。
 
(00:30)
You see in Europe, the pattern is smaller cities but closer connections to the countryside with the rural side.
可以看到,欧洲的模式是“城市规模小,城乡联系紧密”。
 
(00:40)
Therefore this idea of rural-urban linkages, it’s quite common in Europe. It’s nothing new.
这种城乡结合的理念在欧洲非常普遍,毫不稀奇。
 
(00:51)
It’s mostly around the big cities that you have these urban-rural relationships.
城乡结合关系大多围绕在大城市四周。
 
(00:58)
That develops in what is called partnerships, that the big city and the surrounding municipalities and also the private sector.
逐渐发展成为城乡合作关系,也就是大城市与周边村镇、与私营部门之间的合作关系。
 
(01:06)
They form together a kind of corporation which is not formalized as a government structure but as a collaboration,
这种合作关系不同于政府组织的官方合作,而是更像一种民间合作。
 
(01:19)
A collaboration which you find many in Germany, Holland and Switzerland, all over western Europe.
在德国、荷兰、瑞士乃至整个西欧,这种合作模式到处可见。
 
(01:29)
They’re the smaller and bigger municipalities they try to do planning together. They exchange and so on and so forth.
各国将大小城市规划到一起,互相交流、沟通。
 
(01:39)
This is called the rural-urban partnerships. And the European Union is very much in favor of this kind of governance structure.
这便是城乡合作伙伴关系。欧盟非常支持这种形式的治理结构。
 
(01:48)
In Western Europe…in Eastern Europe countries it’s a little bit different.
在西欧……东欧国家的情况稍微有所不同。
 
(01:53)
But in Western Europe the poor live in cities. They do not live in the countryside.
但在西欧,穷人并非生活在乡下,而是同样生活在城市之中。
 
(02:01)
That has a few reasons. The first is that the countryside and the intermediate - you can see what is the countryside, what is rural, what is urban.
原因有以下几种。第一便是乡下和城乡结合部。你可以看到哪里是乡下、哪里是农村、哪里是城市。
 
(02:14)
In Europe we have three categories: urban, intermediate, rural.
欧洲可以分为三大区域:城市、城乡结合部、农村。
 
(02:19)
Rural is really far away - the south of Spain, eastern Europe and so on.
农村距离城市非常遥远,比如西班牙南部,欧洲东部等地区。
 
(02:25)
Most areas are intermediate.
欧洲大部分地区都是城乡结合部。
 
(02:28)
In Holland, wherever I am, if I have a car, within 45 minutes I’m in a hospital.
在荷兰,无论我身在何处,只要有辆车,那么45 分钟内就能找到一家医院。
 
(02:36)
Anywhere in Holland. In Germany, it will take a little more time.
这一情况在荷兰各个地方都一样。若是德国,则可能要多花些时间。
 
(02:40)
But that means good infrastructure, good services, so even if you live outside the city, you are close to the city anyway. So that’s different.
但这意味着城市拥有良好的基础设施,完善的服务,即便人们住在城外,还是离城市很近。这便是不同之处。
 
(02:51)
The poor go to the cities because there is a better chance of employment.
穷人来到城市,因为城市可以带来更好的就业机会。
 
(03:01)
Also if you look at who is poor, then it is sometimes migrant groups from abroad, so the ethnic dimension comes in, sometimes it’s single households, so a mother taking care of children who is divorced.
仔细研究贫困人口,便会发现一些穷人来自于国外移民,来自不同种族的人群,还包括单亲家庭,例如独自扶养孩子的单亲妈妈。
 
(03:19)
She finds it difficult to combine taking care of the kids and a job. And then she gets social help.
这样的母亲很难兼顾孩子与工作,因此只能向社会寻求帮助。
 
(03:26)
So these are examples of the groups who become dependent on welfare.
这些就是有关依靠社会福利生活的群体的典型例子。
 
(03:40)
And sometimes they are not so intelligent with what they do from their money they get from the state.
有时候,这些人不知道该如何更好的使用政府发放的救济金。
 
(03:49)
Sometimes they drink, sometimes they gamble, sometimes they make debts and then problems start.
有些人酗酒、有些人赌博、有些人则负债累累,问题由此而来。
 
(03:56)
They live in the city. So rural-urban… Poverty in Western Europe is an urban issue and it is handled in the cities by welfare systems and welfare workers.
这些人住在城市。那么城乡结合……在西欧,贫穷问题是一项城市问题,由社会福利系统、社会福利工作者负责解决。
 
(04:07)
I think there are a few things that Asians can study in Europe and say, “Hey, what can we learn from that?”
我认为亚洲可以从欧洲学习一些东西,并从中汲取经验。
 
(04:19)
One is that Europe is highly urbanized and is rich, so it is possible to have a combination of smaller cities and high level of income.
其中一点便是欧洲国家目前城市化高度发展,非常富有。这也为小型城市与高收入之间的结合提供了条件。
 
(04:38)
And many European cities rank higher on quality of life. The environmental problems are not so big, the planning is better.
在生活质量方面,很多欧洲城市高居世界前列。这里的环境问题并不严重,城市规划也更出色。
 
(04:53)
So I would invite Asians to study what happens in Europe, which things you can learn from Europe or where you see the difference.
因此,我邀请亚洲各国学习欧洲的经验,研究发展的不同之处。
 
(05:04)
Not for me to tell, but invite Asians to come and learn it yourself.
希望亚洲各国能够来到欧洲,自我体会一番。
 
(05:08)
So you need the policy and a government who says no. You need that in order to avoid many problems that go with urbanization and urban sprawl that we can find in Asia. So strong planning.
亚洲各国需要更为强硬的政策,以及一个敢于说“不”的政府。这样可以避免当前亚洲在城市化及城市化进程中存在的诸多问题。这也更需要强硬的城市规划方案。
 
(05:28)
So I would invite Asians come and study our planning, how we have organized it in Europe and what you can learn from it.
我邀请亚洲各国来到欧洲,学习我们如何规划城市以及如何进行管理,并从中汲取经验。
 
(05:39)
And there is a final thing, a third thing… all the discussion here is about urbanization-economic development, urbanization-economic development.
最后,还有第三件事……这里的讨论全部集中在城市化与经济发展方面。
 
(05:51)
That is what I hear. Bigger cities, more economic development.
我所听到的都是关于发展更大的城市以及实现更好地经济发展等讨论。
 
(05:55)
What I do not hear is about quality of life, what is the relationship between environment, quality of life and the size of cities.
但我没有听到有关生活质量的讨论,也没有听到有关环境、生活质量及城市规模三者之间关系的讨论。
 
(06:07)
People say that through urbanization we get economic development. That is not correct.
人们常说,城市化能够推动经济的发展。这句话并不正确。
 
(06:13)
Urbanization is a by-product. Urbanization follows economic development.
城市化其实是种副产品,是经济发展的副产品。
 
(06:24)
So in Europe, there is more concern for social, environmental, economic aspects together, and then how do we manage that in a city.
在欧洲,人们更关注社会、环境、经济的共同发展,以及如何在城市中妥善处理这三者之间的关系。
 
(06:36)
And here there is a lot of talk about economic development.
而在这里,很多讨论都只关注经济发展。
 
(06:39)
I can understand that because countries that have high ambition, they want higher income.
我十分理解这种情况。亚洲国家雄心勃勃,希望提高财政收入。
 
(06:44)
But still, repairing it later, let’s say solving environmental problems later, that is much more difficult.
但如果在日后才修补问题,比如修补环境方面的问题,则将是难上加难。