Interview: N. Sridharan

Video Tabs

(00:00)
Most of the programs the world over think of attacking poverty in the mega-cities. Because they think, in the case of India … People equate slums with poverty. Whereas the poverty is spread out everywhere. That is one.
世界上大多数减贫项目都集中在特大城市。因为他们认为,如在印度,……居住贫民窟就等同于处于贫困状态。贫困已经在各个地方蔓延。这是第一点。
 
(00:22)
And secondly is that all these programs are concentrated only on mega-cities or metro-cities, whereas poverty is widespread out in small and medium towns.
第二点便是这些项目全部集中在特大城市、大都市中。但与此同时,贫困却在中小城镇中肆虐。
 
(00:34)
Unless we attack poverty at those levels which acts as a cushion or filters for rural to urban migrants.
我们必须解决中小城镇的贫困问题,为城乡移民进程起到过滤作用、缓解大城市的压力。
 
(00:43)
You generate employment in the small and medium towns and they’ll get absorbed there.
只要在中小城镇中创造就业机会,便会吸引人群前往。
 
(00:47)
So the decentralized urbanization enables one person to go into these small and medium towns and generate employment so that these filters can act as a stimulant for the rural to urban migrants to stop there so there, so that there is no pressure on these big cities.
分散式城市化使得人才能够来到中小城镇,创造就业机会,以刺激城乡移民留在中小城镇发展,进而减轻大城市的压力。
 
(01:03)
So it’s important to have a decentralized urbanization policy to tackle the issue of poverty.
因此,推行分散式城市化政策,对于解决贫困问题非常重要。
 
(01:10)
And decentralized urbanization is not just job generation alone, it’s also provision of infrastructure in these small and medium towns in a massive scale so that this can act as filters.
分散式城市化不仅能够创造就业机会,更能大规模地推进中小城镇的基础设施建设,为大城市起到过滤作用。
 
(01:25)
Now India has come out with what is called a census town, which is still a village but it has got all the functions all the other characteristics of urban.
现阶段,印度的解决方案是建立「人口普查镇」。这种城镇的性质虽然仍旧是农村,但已经具备了一个城市所应有的一切功能与特征。
 
(01:34)
So the future challenge for India is how do we tackle these census towns, in terms of infrastructure, in terms of job generation so that the poverty can be tackled even at that level.
对于印度而言,未来的挑战在于如何解决人口普查镇中包括基础设施、就业岗位在内的诸多问题,以便更好地应对贫困问题。
 
(01:46)
It’s not only a town, it’s a very small town. So how do you tackle it at that small level, it’s very important.
「人口普查镇」是一座城镇,而且是规模非常小的城镇。因此如何解决小城镇的问题也至关重要。
 
(01:54)
And for that we need to have a very strong state level policy for developing these small census towns.
印度政府需要出台强硬的国家政策,以发展这些小型「人口普查镇」。
 
(02:01)
They have to come out with a master plan, they have to come out with, again an infrastructure plan, investment plan on all these small towns.
印度政府也要针对这些小城镇出台总体规划、基础设施建设规划及投资规划。
 
(02:10)
Some states have done it already. Like what I was talking about, Kerala… Kerala has got only one metropolis.
印度的一些城邦已经迈出了这一步,比如我刚才提到的喀拉拉邦……喀拉拉邦内只有一座都市。
 
(02:17)
Similarly Madhya Pradesh has three metropolis which are spread out across the state.
与之相似的是,中央邦内有三座都市,分布于城郡之内。
 
(02:22)
So it’s a question of how do you initiate at the state level and decentralize this urbanization process which has been happening in the past, now we have to give more emphasis on this to develop this sort of thing.
问题在于如何像从前一样,自国家层面开始推行分散式城市化进程。我们需要更多关注这方面的工作。
 
(02:35)
Because urbanization is inevitable and urbanization is also linked to industries, so both industrialization and urbanization will go hand in hand whether we like it or not.
城市化的浪潮不可阻挡,且与工业紧密相联。有鉴于此,无论喜欢与否,城市化与工业化必须共同前行。
 
(02:45)
So in that case how do you plan it and then get to decide the effects of all this urbanization is a challenge of what we are going to face in the next couple of decades.
如何规划城市化的进程,并确定由此带来的影响,也因此成为未来几十年中我们将要面对的问题。
 
(02:57)
There are two issues involved here. We learn mutually many things. One is in terms of phases we learn from China, how to go for special economic zones, and other things.
这里涉及到两个问题。我们共同学习到很多事情。第一点便是我们从中国的发展中学习到的经验,例如建立经济特区等。
 
(03:08)
Similarly there is poverty eradication, another thing we try to do. But where we could succeed to some extent is in terms of urbanization.
与之相似的还有消除贫困的举措,这也是我们正在做的。但我认为印度能够在城市化方面取得成功。
 
(03:17)
Chinese urbanization is almost similar to urbanization in the United States, whereas the Indian urbanization is somewhat decentralized.
中国与美国在城市化进程方面非常相似,而印度却有所不同,采取了分散式城市化的政策。
 
(03:25)
Maybe because it’s bequeathed from the British, but the policies are such a way that right from the beginning, in 1956, we started decentralizing urbanization.
这项传统可以源自英国统治时期。印度在一开始便采取了这样的政策。早在 1956 年,我们便开始了分散式城市化的进程。
 
(03:37)
We had urban policy or industrial policy, which started off in different cities, not just one city. So the investments have been distributed across.
我们在不同城市推行城市政策、工业政策,并在各地投资。
 
(03:47)
Whatever Bombay come up with, Delhi has come up with, Chennai has come up with is because of the history, not because there is a deliberate policy that more and more money should go in.
无论孟买、德里或金奈采取怎样的措施,其根源都是历史因素,而非某个特定的引资政策。
 
(03:57)
No doubt now the new government is thinking of even providing high class infrastructure in middle order towns or class one towns, which is 100,000 plus population.
毫无疑问,印度新政府计划为中高级城镇提供更高级别的基础设施服务。这些城镇人口大都超过十万人。
 
(04:10)
So this is a very important lesson to learn for many developing countries, how to distribute this urbanization across space.
因此,如何在各地合理部署城市化进程对于许多发展中国家而言都是一门重要的课程。
 
(04:17)
And especially countries like China and India, we need to disperse the urbanization process or decentralize urbanization.
尤其是像中国与印度这样的国家,更需要将城市化进程分散开来。
 
(04:24)
And once we do that, at least everything is not moved towards east or moved towards the coastal belt. Even the cities in the middle can also develop. This is a very strong message that we can convey to China.
只要采取这一政策,至少不会出现资源集中在东部地区或沿海一带的情况。即便是中部城市也能得到发展机会。这是印度非常希望向中国传递的信息。
 
(04:39)
Similarly, I want to learn more about the town and village enterprise from China. It’s very important, how do you take work to villages and make them inclusive in terms of employment generation and in terms of productivity.
我同样也要向中国的乡镇企业学习更多经验。如何在农村建立企业,如何创造就业机会,以及如何提高生产力,这些都非常重要。
 
(04:55)
It’s like a mutual learning process which is very important, which has come out from this seminar. But we need to explore more of these opportunities.
此次研讨会便是一次意义重大的互相学习过程。我们应当在日后创造更多这样的机会。