Interview: Mujtaba Shahneel

Video Tabs

(00:00)
In Pakistan, the ownership of PPP has really increased as of late because everybody recognizes there is a need for infrastructure.
在巴基斯坦,PPP项目数量近来出现显著增加,因为大家都意识到基础设施建设这一需求。
 
(00:10)
The finances of the government are already squeezed because of the war on terror and the budget deficit. So they are looking for the private sector to bring in foreign investment. So there is a focus on PPPs for that reason.
由于反恐战争及预算赤字,政府在财政方面已然捉襟见肘。因此,政府正在寻求通过社会资本方引进外商投资。为此,政府对PPP给予了高度关注。
 
(00:24)
Another reason is that they think they can tap user fees and tolls through that.
另一个原因是,政府认为可以通过这种形式征收使用费和通行费。
 
(00:29)
There is not really a culture in Pakistan to have tolls and user fees and taxes. So they want to introduce that culture to reduce the budget deficit as well.
巴基斯坦此前并无收取通行费、使用费及税费的先例。因此,政府同样希望通过引入这种制度来减少预算赤字。
 
(00:39)
The two specific sectors where they are really looking to implement through PPPs, one is toll roads and another one is alternate energy, which includes solar, wind and hydro projects as well. So there are the things that are going to be big in terms of PPPs going forward.
政府希望借由PPP实行征税制度的两个特定部门,一是收费公路,另一个是替代能源,包括太阳能、风能、水力发电等。因此,这些部门的PPP项目势必会越来越多。
 
(00:54)
In the power sector, we have the alternate energy development board, which is already doing wind power projects. And they have done that very successfully. They’ve already done a small hydro-power project of about 75 megawatts.
在能源部门,我们有替代能源开发委员会,该委员会已经开始实施风力发电项目,而且非常成功。他们已经实施了一个约75兆瓦的小型水力发电项目。
 
(01:07)
And I think that has already been commissioned, and that was a success. They’ve recently entered the solar market. There hasn’t been a project because there in the beginning process.
该项目已经投入运行,并取得了成功。最近,该委员会开始涉足太阳能市场。目前还没有开展相关项目,因为一切都还处于初始阶段。
 
(01:18)
One good thing they have done is that they have announced a free tariff. So people are taking their projects to the alternate energy board for approval.
委员会已经取得的一大进展即宣布了一项免税制度。因此,相关人员均将其项目提交至能源委员会进行审批。
 
(01:28)
So they are moving very fast on that, on the alternate energy side. On the road side, although if you look at the world map, usually all the countries go for road PPPs.
所以,在替代能源方面,他们的进展非常迅速。在公路方面,尽管从世界范围内来看,几乎所有国家的道路建设都采取PPP形式。
 
(01:39)
In Pakistan, people don’t understand that PPPs are not free lunches. When you go to the bank, they usually ask for some sort of guarantee or that sort of thing. But the government is not willing to give guarantees on tolls or go for an annuity model.
但是在巴基斯坦,公众还并不了解,PPP并非免费午餐。你去银行贷款的时候,银行会要求你提供某种形式的担保或保证等。但是政府不愿意为收费公路提供担保,或采取年金模式。
 
(01:54)
So even though we have done a few PPPs, some with BOT (Build-operate-transfer), some with annuity model, but at the federal level the understanding of the BOT model, in terms of minimum revenue guarantee or how to repay the debt, is not really there at the moment. It will take some time.
因此,虽然我们已经做过一些PPP项目,有些采用BOT(建设-运营-移交)模式,有些采用年金模式,但是在联邦政府层面,对于BOT模式在最低收益保证或如何偿还贷款方面的问题,政府目前还不是很了解。这需要一些时间。
 
(02:09)
They have a couple of projects but they were with state-owned enterprises and they were largely funded by state-owned banks as well.
巴基斯坦已经有几个PPP项目,但都是由国有企业支持,而且大多由国有银行提供资金。
 
(02:17)
So there was a good amount of political will behind that instead of the project being viable in itself. So I think that will take a couple of years to mature.
因此,这些项目之所以能够实施,政治意愿发挥了很大作用,而并非因为项目本身具有可行性。所以我认为,PPP项目还需要几年的发展时间。
 
(02:28)
While on the alternate energy side it’s going to go through, they already have the case studies in place.
而在即将开展工作的替代能源领域,能源委员会已经开始进行相关的案例研究。
 
(02:33)
I think the important thing is they will still take their sweet time. It’s not going to happen overnight.
我们必须认识到一点,PPP的实现还需要一段很长的孕育期。它不可能在一夜之间开花结果。
 
(02:43)
You have to have the PPP units, the viability gap fund, the have the proper feasibility done because the private sector is not going to take a call when they don’t have the data, how things are going to move forward.
你必须设立PPP部门、具备可行性缺口资金,还要进行适当的可行性研究,因为在缺乏项目如何开展的相关数据时,社会资本方不会参与进来。
 
(02:53)
So the government needs to do a proper feasibility.
因此,政府需要进行适当的可行性研究。
 
(02:57)
What has happened of late is the government has launched a few projects under traditional procurement. And what they have done with that is they will start work on the road and people are happy about it, but at times those projects linger on for very long.
最近,政府启动了几个采用传统采购模式的项目。政府开展这些项目是为了开展道路修建方面的工作,公众对此很满意,但有些时候,这些项目会持续很长时间。
 
(03:10)
For example, there is a very important project in Karachi which is the biggest city in Pakistan.
例如,巴基斯坦的最大城市卡拉奇有一个非常重要的项目。
 
(03:15)
It started in 2003, at 3 billion rupees cost, which is in today’s money around 30 million dollars. It’s still not complete.
该项目于2003年动工,成本为30亿卢比,按目前币值来算,相当于3000万美元。目前这一项目仍未竣工。
 
(03:23)
The government has already spent about 110 million dollars on it and the estimate is that it will go up to about 150 million dollars.
政府已经投入了1.1亿美元,估计这一数字还将增至1.5亿美元。
 
(03:30)
So in public procurement, they start to work on the site, but they are not able to deliver.
所以在公共采购项目中,虽然政府已经开始了项目建设工作, 但仅靠一己之力无法完成项目。
 
(03:35)
So they need to understand that PPPs will take their sweet time but they will at the end of the day, deliver.
因此,他们必须了解,尽管PPP还需要一段孕育期,但最终一定会成为现实。
 
(03:41)
Another thing is that the government needs to not involve politicians in the project construction. Keep the political and bureaucratic pressures off the PPP at least for the next five years so that they have the pilot projects on the ground, after which they can push them to do a lot more projects but at least keep these pressures off them for the next three or four years, at least.
另外,政府不能让政界插手项目施工。至少在未来五年,不要让PPP承受政治和官僚主义的压力,这样政府才能开展试点项目,然后在此基础上实施更多的项目,但至少在未来三四年,不要给PPP施加这些压力。
 
(04:06)
PPPs are going to be huge in Asia.
亚洲的PPP项目未来将会非常多。
 
(04:10)
Asia has a very good young population which needs infrastructure, education facilities and energy.
亚洲拥有非常庞大的年轻人口,这些人需要基础设施、教育设施和能源。
 
(04:17)
So the need for infrastructure is there and the economies are growing so eventually the commercial availability will also be there.
所以,对基础设施的需求已经存在,而各国经济也在不断增长,社会资本方参与项目投资最终也将成为现实。
 
(04:25)
One thing I observe is that on the whole — I was just talking to the Mongolia representative, you talk to the Bangladeshi people, you talk to Nepal, everybody is looking at China.
我发现一件事——我刚刚还在跟蒙古国的代表谈论这件事——基本上,无论是孟加拉国,还是尼泊尔,大家都在望着中国。
 
(04:38)
Because of the young population trying to do huge projects and they don’t have the money to do that. And they are looking at China.
这些国家的年轻人在尝试进行一些大型项目,但他们没有项目所需的资金。而他们都指望着中国。
 
(04:48)
So China might turn out to be the main private equity for PPPs sort of country, or hub, for the foreseeable future.
所以,在可预见的未来,中国有可能成为这些国家PPP项目的主要私募资金来源。
 
(04:57)
Because I know that in Pakistan I meet a Chinese company every week. Not all of them are there for the PPP, they are mainly there for the EPC, but some of them are now venturing into the PPP territory.
在巴基斯坦,我每周都会接触到一家中国公司。这些公司并不都是来参与PPP项目的,它们主要为EPC(工程总承包)项目而来,但其中一些公司已经开始涉足PPP领域。
 
(05:10)
And everybody’s looking at China because they know China has the funds to invest in PPP projects across Asia.
而所有人都在指望中国,因为他们知道中国拥有对亚洲PPP项目进行投资的资金。
 
(05:16)
So the need is there and the governments will have to do it because they have very large population and they can pay in the future as well because their economies are growing largely. And China is going to be the hub from all the money is going to come. 
所以,对基础设施的需求已经存在,而由于这些国家的人口非常庞大,各国政府必须采取行动以满足公众的需求。鉴于各国经济都在快速增长,且中国将为这些项目提供资金来源,各国政府均具备未来投资基础设施的能力。