Interview: Li Xiaoyun

Video Tabs

 
(00:00)
中国的城中村,其实现在我们讲的城中村已经不是我们过去90年代在北京看到的浙江村这样的一些城里头的外来人口居住比较集中的地方,我们把它叫做浙江村。
China’s villages in the city nowadays are no longer those places like Zhejiang Village where large quantities of migrants gathered in Beijing in the 1990s.
 
(00:20)
我们今天讲的城中村实际上是在城市化过程中,它的村里头的土地,特别是农用土地,基本都被城市化和工业化了。
Today what we’re talking about are urban villages formed in the process of urbanization. The land inside the villages, especially the farming land, has basically been urbanized and industrialized. 
 
(00:31)
那么地方政府为了能够避免征用土地过程中,特别征用农民居住的土地过程中有讨价还价很长的程序。
 
The local governments might try to avoid the procedure of bargaining with the peasants in the process of land requisition.
 
(00:43)
第二个也为了避免在这个过程中,农民要价太高,说我住的地方你补偿要多。
Secondly, they try to avoid being overcharged as the peasants would usually demand higher compensations. 
 
(00:51)
为了避免这样一个情况出现的时候,它就绕过住的地方,把那个居住地方留下来。然后农地就没了,这样很多农民被转移成城市户口。
To avoid such cases, they would make a detour around the places where those peasants live and leave them alone. Then, the farmland is gone, and many peasants are forced to transfer to urban citizens. 
 
(01:04)
然后周围建了楼房,建了很多其他的什么工厂。在这种情况下,这些农民就到哪里去就业。那么如果不是工厂的话,它建了很多小区,建了很多别墅区。别墅里头物业什么各个方面,街道的清洁各方面,可能就雇佣当地农民来做。
Then, lots of buildings rise up, and factories are set up. In such circumstances, these peasants would go to work there. If there’re no factories, but only residential communities and villas, the local peasants can be employed for the property and sanitation maintenance work. 
 
(01:23)
这样的话农民得到了这种补偿,但是他自己的地还是过去的农用宅基地。那么这个农用的宅基地他留着,他房子也留着。那么在这样一个过程中,随着流动人口的进入,流动人口显然是在城市里边租用很贵的新住宅,是很贵很贵的,他负担不了。
 
In this way, the peasants are compensated, however, their own lands are still the formerly rural residence base. They keep the rural residence bases and their houses. During this process, with the inflow of migrant population, the flowing populations find it hard to rent the expensive new residences in the city. They cannot afford it.
 
(01:46)
那么他就找到这些地方来,农民他是这样,他那房子留着,他一般都有四间房,五间房平房。年轻人都出去了,剩下两个老人,他就会有两到三个房间是空的,那就租出去。
Then, they would find these urban villages. A peasant usually has four or five rooms. With the young all going out for work, only two old people are left at home. Therefore, two to three rooms are empty. They would rent them out.
 
(02:00)
租出去的话很便宜,那么随着越来越多人口进入以后,农民说那我自己的宅基地我自己盖房子。我就自己再往下加,不断地加盖。不断加盖,其实你要在原来宅基地面积上再加盖房子,审批的程序不是特别大,我又不是盖新房。

Rent is very cheap. With more and more people flowing in, the peasants would consider enlarging houses on their own residence base. So they would add floors constantly. In fact, it is not difficult to be approved to add floors to the original houses rather than build new houses. 
 
(02:17)
但是随着加盖的高度,各方面的不断加大。他就违反了什么东西呢?违反了很多住宅管理的、城市建设管理的规定。所以很多的城中村的房子,实际上是我们讲的违规建筑。
With the building height rising continuously as well as the enlargement of all factors, the peasants have breached something. That is, the laws and regulations concerning residential management and urban construction management. Therefore, many houses inside the urban villages are in fact illegal buildings. 
 
(02:34)
那么这样的话,实际上就形成了城中村。城中村里面有两种群体,城中村实际上住着两种类型的人。一种人是我刚才讲的原来的农民,他们的农地没有了。

The urban villages come into being in that way. There’re two categories of populations living in the urban villages. One is the peasants without farmland.
 
(02:52)
他们可能很多都有社会保障现在,也有很多工作。但是他的工作要靠他自己,原来是个农民。城市化以后,他不可能获得一个很好的工资,不可能的。
Many of them might have social security and jobs as well. However, they have to depend on themselves in work. Originally being peasants, it is impossible for them to gain a very good salary after urbanization. Impossible. 
 
(03:06)
他可能就是开出租车,去打清洁工什么。那么他肯定还是属于社会底层的。但是随着移民的流动,他们把房子不断地出租。
They might just drive taxies or do sanitation work. They surely continue to belong to the social grassroots. However, with the flow of migrants, they rent their houses continuously. 
 
(03:18)
大部分这些人就变的相对富余了,今天相对富余了。那么另外一种人是什么呢?是那些农村来的,外地来的,所谓的流动人口。他们在这儿找到了一个便宜,非常非常便宜,非常非常经济的住宿的条件。
Most of these people become relatively well-off today. As for the other category of populations, they are the so-called floating population who come from the countryside or other places. They come here and find very economical accommodations. 
 
(03:34)
这样的话,他们一方面可以在村子之外的地方,在城里头工作,他们可以付很低的租金。第二个方面他们在城中村里头做很多的小买卖,开小铺。为当地人口,也为周围的人口,也为流动人口做一些非常低价的这种服务。
Therefore, on the one hand, they can work in the down town outside the villages, with paying very low rents. On the other hand, they can do many small businesses within the urban villages, for instance, opening small shops, providing some very cheap services for the local and surrounding people. 
 
(03:54)
那么这些人很多是从农村来的,这个群体由于他要支付租金,由于他本身在城里头享受不了城市的社会保障的这样一个保障。那么他又从事比较危险的,比较脏的,比较危险的工作。

Many of these people come from the countryside. They have to pay for rents themselves. As they have no access to the city’s social security, they tend to follow some relatively dangerous and dirty jobs. 
 
(04:12)
所以他们很多人会有职业病,他们很多人会产生工伤。那么很多人又没有很好的社会保障,特别是什么呢?没有城市医疗。
Therefore, many of them suffer from occupational diseases and many face occupational injuries. Most people do not enjoy very good social security, especially in terms of urban medical treatment. 
 
(04:22)
那么农村新的农合,新的农资合作医疗。他的报销范围很小,同时他补偿的费用也比较低。如果你得一个大病,特别现在很多装修工人得了肺尘,肺病。
Then how about the rural cooperative medical service? The reimbursement scope is very limited and compensation standard is also relatively low. Many decoration workers have developed pneumoconiosis, lung cancer or other severe diseases. 
 
(04:38)
那么他花很多的钱,他报销标准很低。所以很多这样的人,最终就变成了什么呢?由于城市化过程所产生的新的贫困人口。
For such major diseases, they have to spend lots of money with a very low reimbursement standard. What will be their results in the end? They would become the new poverty due to urbanization. 
 
(04:49)
这就是我们今天讲的城中村这样一个情况,而城市化的过程中产生这样一个情况所产生一种新的贫困人口。我知道其实城中村为主在北京,像您说的这个现象。虽然我不是专家,但是都有所耳闻。
This is the status quo of the urban villages today. A new kind of poor population would occur in the process of urbanization. I know this phenomenon of urban villages in Beijing. Though I’m not an expert. I’ve learnt a bit about it.  
 
(05:10)
包括里面的脏乱差现象,这些新的城市贫困人口进入。那么下面一个问题想问您一下,您觉得现在中国处在这么一个城镇化的过程当中。
Including some phenomena such as dirtiness, noise and disorder in response to the inflow of these new urban poor people. Now the question is: 
 
(05:25)
我觉得这个问题实际上比较大,您认为城镇化解决了贫穷的问题了吗?
Do you think urbanization have resolved the problem of poverty? I hold that this problem is actually a very tricky one. 
 
(05:32)
我觉得城市化一方面。
In my opinion, 
 
(05:40)
城市化呢?我应该这么讲,城市化一方面它解决了贫困。
on the one hand, urbanization has resolved the problem of poverty. 
 
(05:51)
一方面它产生贫困。所以严格意义上来讲的话,城市化的推进使得很多很多农村的这样一些原来属于农村的人口,在城市化的过程中,它产生新的就业。
On the other hand, it has given rise to new poverty. Strictly speaking, the process of urbanization is pushing many original rural populations into new job positions in the city.
 
(06:04)
他自己因为租赁各方面,土地各方面的补偿,他变成了一个相对富余的群体。同时新进入到这个城市的新的一些流动人口,又由于城市化的过程,导致了陷入到一个新的贫困。
They become a relatively affluent population due to renting and land compensation. At the same time, some new floating population sinks into a new poverty status due to urbanization.
 
(06:20)
所以城市化对贫困的影响是非常复杂的,不是一个非常简单的问题。那么解决这样一个问题的核心,在于什么呢?
Therefore, the urbanization’s impact on poverty is very complicated. It is not a simple issue. Then what’s the core of resolving this problem? 
 
(06:31)
在于找到一个替代性的,可持续的一个城市发展的这样一种模式。这个模式显然是需要考虑我们现在这样的,把工业,把最好的服务业,包括医疗、教育都集中在大城市。
It lies in finding a replaceable and sustainable urbanization mode. This mode apparently demands us to consider that the best industries and services including medical treatment and education are concentrated in big cities. 
 
(06:47)
我们的大城市是一个生产型的,是一个增长性的中心。在这种情况下,它就自然而然会不断把各种低技能的工人。需要各种低技能工人,就在一个大城市产生社会文化。
Big cities are productive and growing centers, which would attract all kinds of low-skill workers. These workers would give rise to a new social culture. 
 
(07:00)
那这样一个大城市为主体的这样一种城市发展模式,显然是有问题的。它会不断地产生新的城市贫困,所以可能的方式就是说城市化的方式在不断地需要调整,使得城市化逐渐推进的一个中等城市,小城市。
This urban development mode only focusing on big cities apparently have its problems. It will give rise to new urban poverty ceaselessly. Therefore, the urbanization mode needs to be adjusted continually and gradually developed to include medium- and small-sized cities. 
 
(07:21)
那么最核心的问题是要把它生产增长的功能,经济增长的功能,把经济的聚集功能向这些小的中小城市去分散。把教育资源、卫生资源和其他资源服务型资源向它集中。
So the core issue is to decentralize its function of production growth and economic growth to those medium- and small-sized cities. We should transfer educational resources, sanitation resources and other resources and services to those cities.
 
(07:36)
这样的话,才可能做到所谓的公共社会资源的均等。那么这样的分配是一个基本的前提,这个我觉得是非常重要的。
Only in this way can we realize the so-called public social resource equalization. Such kind of allocation as the basic precondition is very important. 
 
(07:46)
您刚才说的这个,因为我也在学习,看到英文很多资料里面讲这些decentralized urbanization。像您刚才说的这个模式,是不是就指的是这一点?
I am also studying so I understand what you’ve mentioned just now. Many English materials talked about decentralized urbanization. Does the mode that you just said refer to this? 
 
(07:59)
对,所谓这样一种我们讲的分散性的这样一种工业化模式。实际上中国现在正在做,特别是我们现在推进城市化主要的思路是不断地推进中小城市的城镇化。
Right. It is the so-called decentralized industrialization mode. In fact, that is what China now is facing. The main philosophy of our urbanization is to push forward medium- and small-sized cities’ urbanization. 
 
(08:18)
那么特别是小城市,增强它的经济功能,增强它的服务功能,加强它的资源这种聚集能力。
Especially for small cities, we should reinforce their economic function, service function and resource-pooling function. 
 
(08:31)
只有这种情况下,人才觉得我在那儿住着可以,我在那儿工作也可以。我完全可以实现我的城市梦想,我完全可以实现我的致富梦想,我不需要到上海,不需要到北京去。
Only in such circumstances will a person feel it reasonable to live and work there. I can totally realize my urban dream. I can totally realize my fortune-making dream. I need not go to Shanghai or Beijing. 
 
(08:42)
只有解决这个问题的时候,由于流动人口产生的这种过密化的城市,而导致的城市的不可持续发展。犯罪问题、污染问题、资源过于集中才能够得到安全的解决。
Only when this problem is unraveled, the issue of overly-crowded city caused by floating population and the resulting non-sustainable urban development,as well as crime, pollution and overly-centralized resource problems can be resolved safely.
 
(09:00)
需要在中小城市工业化。
Medium- and small-sized cities also need to be industrialized. 
 
(09:10)
那么实际上我讲的这个分散性的城市化。
In fact, I’m telling of the decentralized urbanization. 
 
(09:15)
分散性的城市化和集中性的城市化区别就在于要把它的经济功能、服务功能以及其他一些功能,资源的集中度由大城市,超大型城市向中等城市向小城市进行转移。
The difference between decentralized urbanization and centralized urbanization is to translocate the economic functions, service functions and other functions from big cities and megacities to medium- and small-sized cities. 
 
(09:36)
那么这就是我们讲的这种分散性城市化的基本含义。
That is the basic meaning of decentralized urbanization. 
 
(09:41)
中国目前来说有哪些比较好的例子呢?像刚才浙江省的。
Can you give me some good examples in China at present? Just like what you said about Zhejiang province. 
 
(09:47)
我觉得这个问题其实在亚洲来看,中国是在城市化方面做的最好的。过去我们中国的农村发展走的特别好,中国在未来20年会给世界提供一个非常好的案例,就是城市化。
I think that China has been the best in Asia in respect of urbanization. China’s rural area has developed very well in the past years. And China will offer a very good example of urbanization for the world in the coming two decades.  
 
(10:01)
那么中国的城市化从1982年的城市化率的20%多,一直到现在50%以上,我们2011年城市户口57%。
China’s urbanization rate has increased from 20% in 1982 to more than 50% at present. In 2011, China’s urbanization rate was 57%.
 
(10:14)
那么这样的话,我们还会有上亿的农村人口再流向城市。那么在这个过程中,我们中央也就是中国政府现在非常明确,城市化的方向中小城市。
If this trend goes on, another 100 million rural people will flow into cities. During this process, the central Chinese government is pretty sure about this fact: the orientation of urbanization is medium- and small-sized cities. 
 
(10:29)
那么这个已经是非常明确的了,像我们现在相当多的中小城市,广州的珠海、汕头,我们到浙江来看义乌、金华所有这些中小城市,你都可以看到中小城市化的带动功能。
Now, this policy is very clear. In many medium- and small-sized cities, such as Zhuhai and Shantou in Guangdong, Yiwu and Jinhua in Zhejiang, you can see the driving force of medium- and small-sized cities’ urbanization. 
 
(10:49)
我们到西北地区,我们到西南地区,那些中小城市这几年发展非常迅速。已经成为城乡发展在城市化过程中的最好契合点,他们吸收了大量的农村人口。
Medium- and small-sized cities in northwest and southwest China have been developing very rapidly in the past few years. They have become the best conjunction point of urban and rural development in the course of urbanization. They are absorbing large quantities of rural population. 
 
(11:07)
那么它就减少了大量的农村人口流向大城市,同时它又发育出相当多的经济、社会、休闲各方面的功能。所以在这方面我觉得中国已经提供了非常好的案例。
As a result, it reduces large quantities of rural population from flowing into big cities. At the same time, it is generating considerable economic, social and recreational functions. In this respect, I think that China has provided very good examples. 
 
(11:18)
记者:因为今天听了浙江讲的,而且本身我家也是有浙江背景的,所以我对浙江特别熟悉。但是其他省市不太知道,你比如说像甘肃、宁夏他们不像浙江这样的对吗?在过去。
Today, you talked about Zhejiang. My family has the background of Zhejiang, so I’m very familiar with Zhejiang. But I do not know about other provinces, such as Gansu and Ningxia. They were not like Zhejiang, were they? In the past. 
 
(11:37)
在过去不是。
No, they were not, in the past. 
 
(11:39)
因为浙江是走在全国前列的,比较富余。
Because Zhejiang takes lead in China. It is comparatively affluent. 
 
(11:40)
但是现在很像了,现在像西北地区、西部地区很像了。中小城市已经开始建设的非常漂亮了,中小城市在西部地区。
But now, they are a lot alike. The regions in northwest and west China are catching up. The medium- and small-cities in west China are much more beautiful now. 
 
(11:48)
你就看到我们整个的工业化在梯度推进,过去我们最好的工业化是我们珠江三角洲、长江三角洲,我们现在看到西部推进的非常近,在西南地区。
As you can see, our overall industrialization is progressing gradually. In the past, our best industrialization was the Pearl River Delta and Yangtze River Delta. Now the urbanization in west China is catching up rapidly. 
 
(12:01)
像四川,像重庆。接着就是我们的西北地区,像我们的陕西、宁夏什么这些地方都在推进这样一个中小城市的发展,做的非常的好。
For example, Sichuan, Chongqing. And in Northwest China, like Shaanxi and Ningxia, they are all pushing forward the development of medium- and small-sized cities. They are doing very well. 
 
(12:15)
其实他这个问题您已经答了,您会有什么建议给政府?关于城镇化的政策上面会给政府一些什么不同的建议呢?
You have in fact answered this question. What kind of suggestions do you have for the government? What different suggestions do you have for the government concerning policies on urbanization? 
 
(12:29)
我觉得城市化这一块中国政府很多东西做的已经非常好了,国际社会也给了很多的建议。这里面有几个问题,一个问题就是说经济增长的重心如果能够逐渐的去转移到经济增长的、社会服务的、文化的、政治的等等。
I believe that the Chinese government has done pretty well in many sectors of urbanization. The international community has also given many suggestions. Here’re several problems. One is about changing economic growth focus to economic growth, social service, culture and politics, etc. 
 
(12:54)
这些功能它不能完全统一在一个地方,这是核心。像北京全部统一,什么旅游的,什么东西都统一。政治中心、文化中心这不行,建的不同的中心。而且要下沉,这个功能要下沉。
These functions cannot be unified in one single place. This is the core. For example, Beijing has unified all these functions such as tourism center, politics center, and cultural center. This is not right. We should set up different centers. We should decentralize these functions. 
 
(13:11)
那么有些地方是服务性的,像有些城市它专门是医疗性的。比如说它很好,有些地方在休闲做的很好,它有不同的功能。那么把这种不同的功能下沉,通过这种形式使得整个城市化的过程可持续,这是核心。
Some regions focus on services. For example, some cities put a premium on medical treatment. They are doing very well. Some regions are good at recreation. They have different functions. Now, we decentralize these functions and try to make the overall urbanization sustainable through this form. This is the core. 
 
(13:27)
那可能会削弱北京、上海大城市的GDP,它会削弱的。因为它增长的少了,那么你就需要转变一个什么东西?转变一个我们过去的,叫地方政府竞争型的地方政府,我都要竞争GDP。
That might weaken the GDP of big cities such as Beijing and Shanghai as the economic growth decreases. Then, what else shall we transform? We should transform the competitive local government. The local governments all compete for GDP. 
 
(13:42)
那么我们以后就得需要考虑什么?在新的城市化过程中不需要以GDP来算,要以一个可持续的城市化发展来看,我觉得这是第一。第二个东西我觉得我们要考虑什么?考虑产业和价值链的这个衔接,是非常重要的。
What shall we consider from now on? Fristly, the level of urbanization shall be estimated with sustainable urban development as the standard instead of GDP. What is the next? We should consider the linkage between industry and value chains. This is very important. 
 
(14:00)
什么意思呢?这很专业,就讲的你那地方有个产业,它一定需要不同的服务业。为了减少成本,那个人必须在周围按距离来居住。
What does it mean? This is very professional. For instance, an industry in your region must be in need of different service industries. To cut costs, workers for such industries have to live nearby while considering the distance. 
 
(14:11)
这个他就很麻烦,这样的话就使得离不开他。你只要搞一个软件,你就必须要有一个汽车在那里,这样的话很多人就必须帮他服务。
This would be troublesome. You cannot do it all alone. As long as you launch a software business, you have to get a car there. Many people have to serve it. 
 
(14:20)
在这种情况下的话,就需要什么东西?需要考虑整体的产业链的一个配置问题。所以这个城市化过程,实际上一个可持续的城市化,不仅是你发展小城市,发展中城市的问题,它是一个非常复杂的过程。
In such circumstances, you need to consider the allocation of the overall industrial chain. The urbanization is in fact a sustainable process. It is more than developing small cities and medium-sized cities. It is very complicated. 
 
(14:35)
中国现在正在考虑这个,包括我们讲的微型城的问题。包括我们讲的把教育资源、经济资源、卫生资源各方面的资源,优质资源向外转移的问题,都是在想推进这个,特别是北京。
China is considering this, including the mini-city issue we talked about. We’re translocating education resources, economic resources, sanitation resources, and other high-quality resources, all in a bid to promote this, especially in Beijing. 
 
(14:49)
京津冀一体化过程都在考虑这个问题,我觉得中国确确实实认识到了这样一个问题,也正在想一些办法来找一些替代方法。
The integration of Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei is also considering this issue. I feel that China has actually realized this problem and is trying to find out some ways, some substitutes. 
 
(15:01)
这里还有一个问题,之前他也问过,我觉得他的意思是城乡之间的贫困差距不是由移民引起的。
Here’s another question that someone asked earlier: “What are the rural-urban linkages beyond migration?” I reckon that he was asking about whether the poverty gap between cities and rural areas was caused by migration. 
 
(15:25)
我们最后一个问题是什么呢?就是说乡村城市贫困这个问题,除了由于流动人口的进入,流出和进入这样一个动态关系所产生的新的贫困以外。
What’s our last question? It is about the problem of rural and urban poverty. In addition to the new poverty caused by the dynamic relationship of inflow and outflow of migrants,  
 
(15:43)
城乡之间的差异本身,特别是我们的社会保障不均等的存在,它就产生了一个既定的城乡差异。
the rural-urban difference itself, especially the inequality of our social security system has also given rise to some certain urban-rural difference. 
 
(16:01)
这个问题的核心是什么呢?这个问题的核心是我们长期以来形成的城乡二元结构造成的。我们城市的社会保障和农村的社会保障是不一样的。你拿城市低保的标准是比农村低保要高。
What’s the core of this problem? It’s the urban-rural binary structure which has been formed for a long time. Our urban social security differs from the rural social security. The urban minimum living guarantee standard is higher than the rural standard. 
 
(16:15)
然后你的城市医疗保障,你报销的范围和报销的比例要比农村的合作医疗要高。
The urban medical security, reimbursement scope and percentage are much higher than the rural cooperative medical service. 
 
(16:27)
那么这个不均等的城乡差异是城乡贫困的核心问题,我觉得是这样一个问题。
So the uneven urban-rural difference is the core problem of urban-rural poverty. I think so.