Interview: Banashree Banerjee

Video Tabs

(00:00)
I made a presentation on urban villages in Delhi as well as Mumbai, and how they differ from small towns and fringe villages in these cities. It’s quite significant, really.
我做过一次有关德里和孟买城中村的演讲,演讲中提到了这些城市中城中村与小城镇及边缘村的区别。这一问题很重要。
 
(00:16)
Because these are villages which are located in the middle of the city. So the kind of opportunities they have to access urban jobs is quite significant.
原因在于,这些城中村位于城市之中,居民获得城市就业机会这一点非常重要。
 
(00:27)
On the other hand, the poor who leave are really the migrants who have come from the villages in search of better employment opportunities.
另一方面,离开乡村的穷人大多希望能够在城市里得到更好的就业机会。
 
(00:36)
And they are quite poor. They live in very poor conditions… perhaps the whole family staying in a room and sharing services like latrines and bathrooms.
他们的确很贫困,生活条件非常艰苦……一家人只能住在一间屋子里,共用厕所和浴室等设施。
 
(00:48)
And the environmental conditions are not too good.
他们的生活环境也不尽如人意。
 
(00:51)
So even though the access to jobs is much better, but then when you look at it from the environmental point of view, they are certainly much worse off than the poor in smaller towns as well as in peripheral areas.
因此,尽管能够获得更好的工作机会,但从生活环境角度来看,这些城中村居民比小城镇及周边地区的贫困居民更为糟糕。
 
(01:08)
The rural-urban linkages of these people are really very complex.
城中村的城乡居民关系非常复杂。
 
(01:14)
First of all, you had the original villagers whose farmland was swallowed up for city development. Those are the original villagers.
首先,城中村里住着原住村民,他们的土地随着城市的发展被一步步吞没。这些便是原住村民。
 
(01:24)
And then you have the tenants, the renters, who are again the migrants from the rural areas who come and then find rental housing in these places.
此外,城中村里还住着租户、房客。这些外来人员同样来自农村地区,在城中村租房居住。
 
(01:35)
Actually Pura has an innovative program which aims at two things: one is improving living conditions in villages and second is that with this improved infrastructure provided to villages, it also attracts jobs and industry so that people don’t have to migrate to the city to find work.
Pura 有一项创新型项目,其目的主要有两个:第一是改善农村的生活环境,第二是通过加强农村的基础设施建设,吸引更多行业进驻,创造更多工作机会,让居民不必移居城市寻找工作。
 
(02:00)
But that part of it is still to be realized. But what has happened is that in the larger villages that have been selected for the Pura program, we certainly see a better way of life of the villagers themselves.
但这一步还尚未实现。眼下,PURA 项目已经在一些规模较大的农村开展,并极大地提升了村民的生活质量。
 
(02:15)
They have better facilities for water, for sanitation and so on.
村民们的用水设施、卫生设施等也得到了改善。
 
(02:20)
I think there are a lot of similarities between India and China if you look at it on the surface.
如果从表面来看,印度与中国有许多相似之处。
 
(02:25)
But I think the political and administrative systems of these two countries are quite different.
但我认为,两国的政治与行政系统非常不同。
 
(02:32)
In the case of India, where we have a democracy and the voices of the poor can reach much more easily than they can in the case of China I feel.
相比中国,我感到印度更加民主,政府也更愿意听取穷人的意见。
 
(02:46)
On the other hand, China is much stronger in terms of implementation and enforcement than India is.
另一方面,中国在政策的执行方面比印度更为出色。
 
(02:55)
And that also in the Indian case there are too many voices that democracy throws up, with diverse kinds of interests, which hampers development.
与此同时,随着民主的发展,越来越多代表不同利益的声音也阻碍了印度的发展。
 
(03:06)
We have fantastic policies, but then the implementation of these policies is a big question, especially when they are for the poor.
我们的政策很棒,但在政策执行方面,尤其是针对穷人的政策执行方面出现了问题,
 
(03:15)
But I think China that way stands a better chance because you don’t have so many of these different voices emerging.
在这点上,我认为中国会更有优势,因为没有那么多不同声音的干扰。
 
(03:22)
So I think there are give and take both ways. But what we can learn from each other is, that we are both big countries and emerging as big economies and the interest of both these countries is to develop towards more inclusive growth which also includes the poor.
我相信两国都做出了一定妥协,但我们可以相互学习。中印作为两个大国,世界经济地位也愈发重要。寻求包容性增长,包括针对穷人的举措,是两国的共同利益所在。
 
(03:44)
So I think there is a lot we can learn.
两国都有很多方面值得对方学习。
 
(03:48)
For instance, India can learn a lot from the health system, the education system in China. And perhaps China can learn from India about how to represent the interests of the poor in higher levels of government.
例如,印度能够从中国的医疗、教育系统中学到很多东西。而中国同样可以借鉴印度政府高层维护穷人利益的宝贵经验。